PvP, WoW, etc.

[Sigmire]

I'm bored so gonna start a discussion. I was reading a thread on the WoW main boards about what people would like to have as PvP.

What would you like to see as PvP in a primarily PvE game?

What type of gameplay would you like to see WoW be more like if it was based around prior games?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I believe that no lvl restriction is the way to go as long as it is done properly. The *only* reason that I say this is because it really sucks when you're lvl 25 and a 50 comes by, does 1 swing and destroys you. But, if the game is setup more like AC2 where lower lvls had a chance to get away or do something then it'd be alright.

DAOC when it came out, I walked out at lvl 20 and got 1 shotted by a lvl 40+. AC2 I felt that I could at least have a chance of getting away or doing something. Full group of 20's vs 1 40+ = group being instakilled in DAOC. Full group of 20's vs. 1 40+ = group having a fighting chance in AC2.

There was a fight in AC2 where a bunch of us (6-10.. can't remember) kept killing some idiot that tried to walk past where we were fighting so he called in his guildmaster who was waaaaaaay above our level. We lost but he was down to like 1/5 of his hp, it turned out to be a very fun fight.

---------------

I want Team or Faction PvP everywhere. I do not want specified zones to fight in and I want to be always looking around for someone trying to jump me. I want to have a group of people that are on "my" side, whom are willing to work to gain an advantage over the opposing team.

I want people to f'n understand that they're on a "team pvp" server where you are meant to be killing the other team and not having tea with them. Note: some things happened in EQ just because of the mechanics of the game... but I'm talking about generalities of PvP and not 1 game specifically. In AC2 we kept gettin yelled at for killing the other team... well DERRRR!

Also, just because it's a "team" base pvp it shouldn't mean that my guild has to drop everything we're doing and go bail that other guild out of a fire every time *they* decide they're going to go raid somewhere. That's something that always pissed me off. Being in the middle of something and someone's guild did somethign stupid and now wants us to come bail them out. If we choose to help, cool, if we don't then don't whine... this works both ways as well. We'll fight our fights and if we invite you and you decide not to come then thats fine.

------------

I do not want item loot. Actually it depends on the mechanics of the game. A game where items are king like EQ was then no, do not want item loot. It is a real downer on the psyche when you spent 2 weeks+ getting an item only to have it stolen by some twit who attacked you when you had 10 hps left. In a game where items are many, easy to come by, and/or not important then item loot would probably be fine.

I want it where if you get killed in PvP then you respawn at reduced abilities like lower hp, mana, stats, etc.... reduces any kind of bind rushing. Also this helps if you're trying to raid a building being defended by a bunch of people.

Based around that idea, I like the idea of only being able to bind in certain spots... this only really ever affected casters but it helps cut down on bind rushing of any sort. Along those lines though, there should be enough bind spots that people can't just camp 1 and continuously kill you.. they need to guess at where you'll be.

-------------

Reduce resistances. I dont' mind some resistance to spells.. makes sense, but EQ jsut got over the top (dragonball z style) with the sheer amount of resistance people can put up which required uber debuffs... just make it all easier and simplify it.. tone it down.

I don't mind 1 shot kill abilities (ex: death touch, manaburn) as long as a player can't get those abilities back for a very long time. It just means that you need to travel in groups instead of solo'n it all the time.

--------------

I've seen people whining about how WoW seems to be a betterment of EQ, same style but better abilities and more interesting combat. To me, that's perfect. I really enjoyed fighting in EQ, the camping, the dungeon crawls, etc. I just didn't enjoy the amount of time it took to level and get new abilities. I've had much more fun in EQ PvE than any other game that I've played thus far.

I also liked how you knew what each class could do in EQ and what to expect from them. I'm not to keen on point-based skill/ability systems anymore because you don't know what you're going to get in that next party member. "cool! you're a priest, we need ya." *get in fight* "why aren't you healing!? what? you didn't train that ability??"

I don't mind some customization between same kind of character but some games seem to be giving to many options which creates problems.

If WoW turns out to have the same feeling PvE wise as EQ but with much more diverse, and interesting abilites then I'll probably be happy.

----------

One last thing. PvP servers need to be supported. They need GM's that have a clue what is going on in the server, both with game rules & politics, and make informed decisions based off of that. DOn't need a GM that will only be on the server for 3 months and get moved somewhere else, but someone who actually knows what's going on and acts as a referee, not a discplinarian.



thoughts? ideas? comments?

[Slamz]

I will accept Sullon Zek style PvP only if one of the following is true:

1) The world is truely massive and the population is split into 2 teams so that only 50% of the population can kill you and there's plenty of space to try and hide from the other 50%

or

2) Newbie vs Veteran combat is relatively even in terms of damage per second, like SWG.


I also think ALL servers should use the same plan. I don't want to be stuck on a backwater server with bugs that never get fixed because the bugs only apply to our server. (Like people figuring out ways to make your pets go poof that only apply to team PvP servers. That bug didn't get fixed in the entire 3 years I played VZ/SZ.)


All deaths must be equal. Whatever happens when you die in PvE should be the same thing that happens when you die in PvP. If monsters don't loot your corpse then neither should players.

I liked the AC2 style death system or the DAOC death system: you die, you lose stats. Enough deaths in a row and you basically suck. Recovery comes either from more XP'ing or from buying back your lost stats. I suggest that either you always respawn with all your stuff or you respawn with everything except maybe 1 or 2 most valuable items. Corpse recovery adds a certain thrill to the game, but it shouldn't result in easy corpse camping because you actually spawn completely naked.

I'm not a fan of one-shot skill abilities for any reason. Remember that guy in The Overthere? Some Shadowknight that would ONLY show up when his Harm Touch ability was active. That's lame.

---------

Personally, I like the battlefield idea. The world is PvE except for some specific areas that are custom built for PvP. Forts, dungeons, battlegrounds, something special designed for people to have big fights in, with some kind of reward involved for controlling the area.

Running around South Ro attacking people is ammusing, but not as ammusing as actually having a fight to see who gets to control Sebilis. EQ's problem was that with no PvP death penalties, fights like that would never end. We need something to fight over but we also need a way to win.

[Sigmire]

I agree with the AC2 death system... I think that worked very well.. except the times that you keep dying then ya end up playing catch-up forever

Corpse recovery *did* add a certain thrill except the times that you had hung around an extra 5 minutes past the time you had to leave just to help someone out, and then died. That sucked... bad.

Yea, I remember the SK in OT. He jumped me and kakarat once when i was low hp.. he ended up having to use his death touch on me and then Kak chased him off. He also was bothering a bunch of people in OT when he did a shadow step right into Diallo's backstab.

[Hoofhurr]

That would seem to be the case but for some reason the pre-velious EQ PvP system, which was a secondary consideration to Verant, blows every game out of the water that was designed for PvP since then. How did that happen? How can we take that base and improve on it? I can make those statements eventhough I played a cleric for those first 8 months.

It's hard to pinpoint why it was so much fun and why no one has been able to reproduce it since then, but I'll try anyway.

1) There was a strong sense of team solidarity. You were proud of your team and everyone else was a potential enemy.

2) The number of high level characters was relatively small and you knew both friends and enemies very intimately. You generally encountered the same individuals over and over again and it became a chess game of sorts.

3) The game had tons of options/items/spells/skills/geography that could all be used to great effect in a PvP environment. There were so many variables to consider when engaging in a PvP fight that it was mentally stimulating from a tactical perspective. This includes the Z-axis bug, lag, motility spells, Line-of-sight, etc.

4) If you were playing smart, PvP fights could last a long time, long enough to switch from a defensive strategy to an offensive strategy if you wished too. People still got ganked but the smarter you got the less you got ganked and no one was really strong enough to one shot you so you usually had a chance to recover and make good your escape or turn the tide of the fight.

5) Group versus Group PvP. A fight might start out as you v. him but as soon as one of his friends joined you had to consider the abilities/gear/skill/level/etc of that new person and how they might combine their efforts to take you out. The combinations here are inumerable and that was definitely a big lure to PvP.

6) The starting cities for a team were close together in relation to the starting cities of other teams. This created a territorial, battlelines, type of scenario right from the start. Certain teams had better access to certain dungeons which created a supply and demand dynamic for items among teams. What it really did was give you a reason to go into enemy territory and put yourself at risk in order to obtain something.
The market interaction for items found in guk vs solb was an incredible dynamic. Not only did you most times have to go in and steal the camp from someone but you also had to defend it while other people tried to take it from you. Talk about player created content some more please...the Zek servers had this stuff from day one. Imagine if you will 30 v 30 person battles in the Plane of Hate or Plane of Fear. Those zones were deadly to begin with but when you add 60 people running around in circles killing eachother to the mix it gets that much more intense.

7) Battling over zones to xp in. This was huge because it quickly became apparent how important levels were in PvP more so than any item you could gain. This idea is central. Levels are the single most important factor in trivializing content. It is also the reason why people powerleveled so much. If you can take away from the importance of levels so much then you remove the desire to get to the highest levels asap. This would make PvP more fun too.

I think you will find that as EQ progressed all of those points except for number 7 were diluted or altered which worsened the PvP experience over time. I think you will also find that many of these points are missing or cheapened in some fashion in other games that have tried to create a MMORPG with a strong PvP component.

[Slamz]

Good points there. I'm going to move this to the public forum in case I feel like linking this thread from somewhere.

2) You definately don't want too big of a community. It adds a little something when you get to know your enemies, as in, "Ah ha, there's that necro that killed me when he was 50 and I was 20, now he's 60 and I'm 56, let's see how he likes me NOW."

3) Options are mandatory. It's why I always said that the water bug should just be called a feature. It was a huge tactical option to try and dive in and out of the water to land something on your enemy and narrowly avoid his return fire. SWG PvP really suffered most from this -- there were so few good toys or options, you could actually macro your combat sequence with pretty high success.

I always felt like Batman playing EQ, because I had SOW potions and rare insta-pumice and common slow-pumice and fireshield potions and cure poison potions and things that would root or snare people's pets, different procing weapons I may switch around, etc. Expendables made PvP more exciting than PvE.

4) Yes, I'm a fan of long lasting fights. Time to duck and move, time to call for help. I remember Grumples as a level 49 magician fighting a level 60 necromancer for over and hour. It was all duck and move, water dancing, levitating, running away to hide and meditate, dispelling, trying to lure his pet away so I could kill it and then sic my pet on him, etc. When SWG first came out fights lasted 1 second. Later they improved it so they lasted 4 whole seconds. It still sucked. Being able to get into a big fight for 15 minutes is where it's at.

I have some great memories of attacking random lighties where I'd whack one and run away, then spend 5 minutes hauling ass all over some huge zone until I managed to lose 4 of my 5 pursuers, then turning and killing the one that was still on me, then going back to do it again. Or just whailing on someone because he doesn't have the stuff to kill me, but he's a healer, and then his friends show up just when I figure he's about out of mana.

Kinda like AC2 at level 30. Fights were slow, fun and tactical. At level 50 fights were whack-whack-dead. No time for fun, you hit first you win.

6) Enemy team domination of certain dungeons was cool too. Raids to get loot out of SolB because it was lighty controlled 90% of the time was good stuff. You really felt you were in for some shit when you went to try and get anything out of "lighty country".



EQ's ultimate failure was really just the level and item grind. Right about the time I quit was when tactics and skill ceased to matter because it was all down to who had the Ultimate Sword of Uberness. Only .5% of people on the server would have one, and unless you spent 8 hours a day on PvE, it wasn't going to be you.

[Hoofhurr]

Would be cool if they re-released EQ with a server, hardcoded teams, and only Antonica and Kunark in it and the max level was 50 =) Then they would reset the server every 6 months or so. Interesting experiment anyhow.

[Sigmire]

Then they would reset the server every 6 months or so

why this?


On another note: Large scale PvP > small group > 1 vs 1. But I like to have the option of pvp'n anywhere. One of the great things I remember was saying "Hey we need to go to area A, we'll just clear out the lighties along the way." Or even the big fight in that forest outside of Rivendale against Prophets... well until they started logging in the other 50 characters.. but I degress.

6) The starting cities for a team were close together in relation to the starting cities of other teams. This created a territorial, battlelines, type of scenario right from the start. Certain teams had better access to certain dungeons which created a supply and demand dynamic for items among teams. What it really did was give you a reason to go into enemy territory and put yourself at risk in order to obtain something.

) Enemy team domination of certain dungeons was cool too

I feel that this has been a big issue of late. Players made their areas, they came over and said "this is ours" and kept a populous enough to keep it. I didn't have that "crap, i need to be careful here because it's soandso country" and I think that's a big thing.

Warcraft looks to be going back to that idea since each of their races start out in a different city... their racial city. Orcs,Tauren, and trolls (i think) are on 1 continent with the Night elves from the Alliance while their pal, the undead, are stuck on the opposite island with humans, dwarves, and gnomes. But they all start in their own city and will have to traverse the area to get to the other places.

IMO, another thing that gave rise to player-made territories is the lack of easy traveling. If you wanted to get over to the other side of the continent then you needed to get walking or beg a wizard/druid to port you. People learned to hunt near to their cities and not go running around the map till higher levels.

Oh! just in case you didn't know. WoW is supposed to have dungeons and happenings inside the cities... like creatures walking out of the sewers and such... could be interesting.

[Sigmire]

Blizzard has stated a while back, and may follow thru with it, that their PvP will be based upon consentual basis (arenas, duels, etc) and specified zones. My personal view on dues and arena battles is: That's not PvP... that's watered down PvP.


Now, I do not have much knowledge of how it felt fighting in designated zones ala DAoC. Perhaps some of you whom have played both the EQ style (pk anywhere) and the DAoC style (lets go to zone A and fight) will be able to provide your views and oppinions on which is your preferred method and why?

[Slamz]

DAOC style is really the best of both worlds.

At least when I played, DAOC worked like this:

Beyond level 35 or so you really wanted to start hitting the higher level mobs.

The higher level mobs were in the PvP zone.

So you still had that Everquest sense of danger in that you could be out PvE'ing and have to keep your eyes peeled for enemy players that could come down on you, and similarly you could head into this high level area to hunt for people who were trying to XP.

If I remember right, you COULD level to 50 without entering the PvP area, but all the good stuff was out there. Risking PvP pretty much became mandatory at high levels.


Although what really made it feel right, and I doubt Warcraft will do this, is that each team's PvE zones were seperate. It made the world smaller, but you never came across an enemy in a PvE area and said, "Damn! This guy killed me last week and now I can't kill him!" The only place you would ever run into the other team was in the PvP zones.

-----

PvP zones can't just be The Arena, like a big open zone with nothing in it. That's fine for tournaments but it's not going to give you good PvP. You need it to be like AC2 (regular servers) or DAOC: you eventually WANT to enter to PvP zones if not for the PvP, then because there's something else there, like good XP, good dungeons or just something worth fighting over.

That's what I hope WOW does, if it's true that 10% of the world will be PvP. That 10% should have some of the coolest dungeons and monsters and stuff to do.

[Slamz]

Basically if EQ were DAOC, zones like South Ro and Oasis would be PvE, but zones like Sebilis and Trakanon's Teeth would be PvP. (Or Trakanon's Teeth would be PvP and whatever team controlled it could enter Sebilis.)

[Sigmire]

that would probably be fine... even EQ was kind of like that, well except Kelthin (wood elf area). Everyone had their noob area that was, relatively, pvp free.

[Sigmire]

Something to think about as well. Just read that Warcraft isn't going to have collision detection between players (at all) and even thru mobs if you're trying to run thru them.

I'm not sure how to view this. I know what they're getting at but I personally think that collision detection amoung characters should be involved. Maybe not to the full degree and volume of a character skin but at least like EQ does where there is a hard object like a skeleton per character taht you can't get past directly.

They're doing this to help prevent some griefing, unfortunetly they're not realizing that collision also helped stop some griefing. Like some of us fatties blocked a tunnel and trapped blizzy inside so the fighters could close in and kill him.

[Veraphim]

I remember seeing like 6 iggle trolls all swinging at a corner once. Couldn't tell wtf they were doing...just 5-6 trolls all standing on each other staring at a wall.

10 seconds later I heard a crunch and they dispersed and Ishmaralda's corpse was lying in the corner. Colision detection at it's finest.


----------------------------------------------------------------

I think there has to at LEAST be battlegrounds for PvP to be worth a shit. Duels just aren't gonna do it ; You know where the other guy is ; You know his spell list or abilities ; You know his level. In DAOC battlegrounds, you go there knowing that there are enemies there, but are they in the fort? Are there groups roaming? Is it a lone archer stealthed and hiding behind a tree? There still something in the air that keeps you on your toes.

I'll agree that EQ PVP was actually really great.(except for the z-axis problems, and SOE never really taking any time to try and balance spells:resistances), and it was mostly the gear-centered part of eq that ruined it in the end. Pre-velios PvP was great fun, and even the top-end gear from trakanon etc didn't garentee you a win.

[Sigmire]

WoW Moderator

No collision is funny. I like jumping up and down on top of a monster while another group is trying to fight it.

No-Collision is something that I don't think i'll like.... even on just the pve side.

[Slamz]

Yeah, even Everquest's lack of collission between monsters annoyed me. Seeing that Twenty Armed Sarnak attack us is not good for immersion.

Though I guess that's just one of those technical hurdles that ends up being too much trouble to do properly.

[Hoofhurr]

I've come to expect and rely on good physics engines in all the games I play. If the physics of a game are poor then half the fun is missing.

[Slamz]

I've pretty much come to expect poor physics in a MMOG.

It seems to be one of the prices of a game designed to support 100 people in the same visible area. Given the choice between poor physics and 100 people or awesome physics and 16 (or 1) people, I still have to go for the bigger number.

[Sigmire]

true Grump but they should be able to meet certain standards instead of us lowering our, already low, standards about games.

[Sigmire]

A WoW employee posted up yesterday that he's seen the ideas that the programmers have come up with for PvP and he thinks they're bad ass.


This is coming from the same guy that believes having absolutley no clipping between characters (even npcs) is a good thing, SO I'm not holding out for a whole lot.

Good news: there will be PvP
Bad news : it may be teh suck

[Zeel]

Man, it is good to be back... I needed to read something like this to remind me how much I missed GOOD MMORPG experiences. My opinion of the whole industry right now is in the shitter because it seems that no company can produce a product that does even 50% of the things that I like right. I know that I'm not the only one who likes this stuff because all you guys are here yelling into the same cardboard box for the last 3 years. SWG was a failure. Pure and simple.

After EQ I figured some company would take the tried and true formula that they discovered and fix the 15 nasty problems that any schmo from an uber guild could list off for you and WHAMMO, next dose of crack. Instead we've spent the last 3 years re-inventing the wheel and forgetting that the damn thing needs to roll.

Someone should take this list of stuff in this thread and set up a meeting with the WoW people to discuss it. Offer to buy them lunch or something. Seriously. I don't think I can take another MMORPG letdown....

Or, was EQ like your first girlfriend that was a real bitch but all you remember is the two times you got to sleep with her... I'm beginning to fear that this may be the case.

At any rate, it is great to be back and thanks for the terrific read

Sean

[Sigmire]

any schmo from an uber guild could list off for you and WHAMMO, next dose of crack. Instead we've spent the last 3 years re-inventing the wheel and forgetting that the damn thing needs to roll.

so many little quotes in that big one that ruled....

[seretogis]

DAOC has no collision between players, and I haven't had a problem with it yet. In fact, it allows me to sit more comfortably on Valthar's lap. :oops:

[Sigmire]

I just don't see the reason why *not* to have it. Griefing? I can see griefing happen mroe when they know they can't cornered.

[seretogis]

I just don't see the reason why *not* to have it. Griefing? I can see griefing happen mroe when they know they can't cornered.

Blocking and lag are the two major reasons that player+player collision is not implemented. As for blocking, it could happen accidentally without any attempt to grief another. Simple have a large model character and go afk, and you could potentially be blocking someone's way. The returning-mobs-don't-agro system that DAOC uses for trains is really quite nice and seems to prevent a lot of possible griefing as well. Collisions give a game a better feeling of reality, in that you can bump up against people, but I don't think that would be worth the lag which would be incurred -- especially in a largely zoneless game like DAOC.

[Sigmire]

ya know... that was 100x better answer than any that GFrazer (WoW moderator) posted up.. him and his "I like to jump up and down in mobs while people hit it."