HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been warned

[strife]

The books never directly says Loras and Renly are gay, but there are lots of hints about it and comments from other characters that make it somewhat apparent, and GRRM had said he was gay prior to the series being shot.

I dunno about lots of hints. I re-read the first book before watching season one when I got it on Blu-Ray and I was specifically looking for hints of homosexuality because I had heard it was in the series. I finished the first book and came up with nothing beside Loras dressing as a bit of a fop.

This. And of all the deviations from the book, this is the one that annoyed me the most - HBO just wanting a broader audience at my expense. I also went back through the first book to see where the hints were, because we talked about it here on the boards following the first instance in season one.

Yea... also the first book was published in 1996... which was in a time when being gay wasn't the main stream phenomena it is today. I'm glad to see that this just wasn't me completely missing it... I'm curious to see how finishing up book 2 will change my perceptions now that I'm actually thinking about it.. when I watched them talk about Renly and the "Rainbow knights" I wanted to stab my eyes out.

[Jakensama]

I know some people want to believe it is HBO pushing a cultural agenda, but GRRM specifically stated he was gay and the books are replete with references. So either GRRM is a big fat liar and pulled it out of his ass (see what I did there), or they were always gay..

Although after a google it seems a lot of the more obvious comments were in Book 3 when Loras was a bigger character.

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Lots of quotes there, probably spoilers if you haven't finished SOS yet.

"Renly is “gay in the books, too,” says George R.R. Martin, the author of the bestselling novels. But online chatter suggests that not every reader picked that fact up.

“I never meant to make it a mystery,” Martin says. “I like to handle things subtly. I couldn’t ever actually say, ‘such-and-such is gay,’ because, as I’m sure you know, the word wasn’t invented until the 60s. And I’m talking medieval times, and I’m not going to say, ‘so-and-so is gay.’ But I thought it was pretty clear in context

.” "

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It makes sense to be more obvious in the show as being subtle doesn't work and there are some things with margery that will be pertinent in the seasons to come..

[OrsunVZ]

Maybe in his own head that's what he thought. Even so, HBO took the so called "hints" and turned it into brokeback mountain - there was definitely no mention of renly's knob getting waxed by the knight of flowers ANYWHERE.

[Jakensama]

They added a lot of heterosexual sex scenes that weren't in the book either - hell Ros the prostitute - wtf is that character?

The fact that it seems icky to people doesn't make it some huge departure, when in reality its fairly minor compared to many other departures taken in season 2.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see dudes blow each other (Hell, I don't want to see anyone getting blown - I prefer to see no Junk in pornography), but the amount of people crying about this online is silly.

[strife]

Maybe in his own head that's what he thought. Even so, HBO took the so called "hints" and turned it into brokeback mountain - there was definitely no mention of renly's knob getting waxed by the knight of flowers ANYWHERE.

Exactly...

@ Jake, there's little doubt that he intended him to be gay... but HBO definitely pushed the agenda... Hell, they pushed Sex in general well past what I would have expected if I just read the books first.

[strife]

They added a lot of heterosexual sex scenes that weren't in the book either - hell Ros the prostitute - wtf is that character?

The fact that it seems icky to people doesn't make it some huge departure, when in reality its fairly minor compared to many other departures taken in season 2.

No, it just stands out... it was one of those things that after reading the book I looked back on season 1 and was like... where the hell did that come from. And yea, HBO in general pushed sex and nudity way more than I would have taken from the books. I mean, sex sales so I can't blame them... but still..

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see dudes blow each other (Hell, I don't want to see anyone getting blown - I prefer to see no Junk in pornography), but the amount of people crying about this online is silly.

Not crying, just pointing out. Big difference.

[OrsunVZ]

Some changes are fine or needed in order to translate a concept from the book that works in print but is particularly difficult to portray through film, or where budget constraints are an issue. Ros the whore in King's landing is stupid. Margery offering Loras' "help" to Renly was a total betrayal to her character, and just further supports the fact that this is HBO's influence, and that all of this talk of "oh there were hints!" is actually a conspiracy to hide that fact.

CONSPIRACY!!!! :mrgreen:

I think the cries are highly justified. The Renly/Loras things is teh "tip" pf the iceberg. But ultimately there have been far too many changes that did not serve a purpose, and that cannot be linked to budget or "portrayal" constraints. They are taking their queue from Starz's "Sparticus", and they don't need to. The whole appeal of this epic story is an incredible story driven by characters who stay true to themselves. HBO doesn't get that, or doesn't care to get that. But that is what people are upset about. The Renly/Loras thing is just the loudest example of it.

[Jakensama]

Margery is power hungry, she was portrayed properly in the show, IMO.

I think a lot of changes are making sense and are probably long term decisions, the show is going to diverge from the books and as such there are going to be characters lost and storylines dropped to deal with constraints. IMO they have done fairly well so far and the only people complaining are the super hard core book nerds who do not make up much of the audience..

Thus far Ros is the only change I really scratch my head about..

[OrsunVZ]

She's power hungry, yes. Hedonist, NO. You can't seriosuly justify that.

[Jakensama]

Where do you get Hedonist from? I didn't see that portrayal. Her advances on Renly were to get her pregnant, which she said specifically.

[Chain]

Margery is power hungry, she was portrayed properly in the show, IMO.

Really? I don't think Margery was power hungry in the books (unless she does something in Dance with Dragons? I haven't read that one) - she was just being controlled by her grandmother, who certainty was power hungry and ruthless enough to get it. The TV series has simply removed a layer of complexity and combined the characters, both things which film adaptations of books are known to do.

[OrsunVZ]

And actually, she wasn't so much power hungry. That whole family is a machine. She's was more the pawn. If you recall her mother/grandmother matriarch of the family was pushing the agenda and calling the shots. Margery was much more the innnocent getting caught up in it all. It struck me that Sansa and her were very similar, and but for a slight age difference, and poor timing either could have found themselves in the other's shoes.

Getting pregnant while your brother arouses your spouse... that's not just some pragmatic compromise. C'mon. I just don't see her character making those kinds of advances without the new spin of overly sexed up storyline.

[OrsunVZ]

Just to be clear, I think *some* changes make sense, I just think the sex angle HBO is bringing to the table is overly amped up, and frankly distracting from the story line. It also makes certain characters too weak willed. The books had sex and sexuality as a significant theme. Bastards and adultry are major plot drivers, but it's been taken too far where these characters can't think beyond 1 foot in front of their wangs. It basically casts a totally different tint over the story.

And I'll admit, that originally I liked the idea of using whores as a device to divulge inner dialogue. I'm not sure it serves the characters themselves though, and instead, once again becomes distracting.

[Jakensama]

[spoiler]Shes certainly more like her grandma in the series for the sake of combining characters, but her discussion with Cersei later on in the books (IIRC, been a while) and other issues make her not seem particularly innocent. She knows how to play the game and has been brought up to do so. I certainly got the feeling that she wasn't as vapid as Sansa is to start before she starts becoming smart..[/spoiler]

Its not like in the series she wanted to include Loras for some kinky bullshit, she was doing it out of political ruthlessness. Not sure how that could be taken hedonistically, nor considering how Nobles acted historically would it be outside the realm of reality that much.

Sure, HBO sexes things up, but this stuff is far less silly than the overdoing it with the sexposition scenes in Season 1. And the source material is hardly non sexual - a brother nailing his menstruating sister on a church alter? Something tells me lena headey isn't going to do that one...

[OrsunVZ]

I wasn't saying she was innocent. She's older than Sansa, and know quite a bit more abotu how things "work" but I never got teh impression she would have been able to pull that kind of a manuever off without looking at least slightly unsure of herself. She was so matter of fact about it. That's why I say it's a betrayal of her character. Too much of her grandmother in her actions.

Anyway, enough board warrioring from me. Maybe I am a book dork, but shit man, the books were great, leave them as intact as possible. It's not like any of these changes are actually BETTER than the books.

[Jakensama]

I disagree, many changes were better in the tv show. I think cersei became a much more sympathetic character in the show (the lion in the winter discussion with her and robert was a fantastic scene).. The bottom line is that there is going to be a big difference in the show and a lot of shit can tbe translated to screeen - and it is going to get bigger as each season goes along - 10 episodes a year is not enough to cover it. I dont know if they have the long term plan done well or not, but we had better get used to a somewhat different show - and thus far i don't think they have done anything that is crazy...

[Rallick]

I'm glad I didn't read the books

[OrsunVZ]

I'm glad I didn't read the books

Hahahah, yeah.

Jake I don't disagree with most of that, and I'll even say the lion in winter scene was good. I dont know how it will translate as her character progresses, but she is definitely walking quite a different path from the books. I am not convinced it is better for the story as a whole though, even if her particular character is better (and it is better in the show, she was pretty flat in the books)

[Donions]

I liked when Leonidis kicked Joffrey into a hole and then Zeus rode in on a unicorn and fucked a Kraken.

[OrsunVZ]

I liked when Leonidis kicked Joffrey into a hole and then Zeus rode in on a unicorn and fucked a Kraken.

yeah but in the book, it wasn't a unicorn, it was a my-little-pony. The fact they chose a unicorn is a disgusting misrepresentation of Zues' very clear childhood abuse/daddy issues, and in the book, it was clear that he "fucked" the kraken. It was suggested, but never fully materialized. This just further proves my point that HBO is run by a bunch of under-sexed queens with nerd rage.

[Vanraw]

I liked when Leonidis kicked Joffrey into a hole and then Zeus rode in on a unicorn and fucked a Kraken.

yeah but in the book, it wasn't a unicorn, it was a my-little-pony. The fact they chose a unicorn is a disgusting misrepresentation of Zues' very clear childhood abuse/daddy issues, and in the book, it was clear that he "fucked" the kraken. It was suggested, but never fully materialized. This just further proves my point that HBO is run by a bunch of under-sexed queens with nerd rage.

You guys need to use the "spoiler" function so you dont give it all way!! PS, cant wait to see Kraken sex scene.

[Jakensama]

I was just watching the last episode again and noticed how groomed Jamie was despite being a prisoner for quite some time... Same thing with tyrion supposing to be fucking hideous in real life (and having no nose after the blackwater fight).. Amusing how they just wont let anything ugly onto television.

[Chain]

Amusing how they just wont let anything ugly onto television.

Brienne of Tarth, too, is actually fairly pretty.

[Flab]

Orsun and Jakensama...
[spoiler]YEr gay.[/spoiler]

[OrsunVZ]

[spoiler]gay for flabass![/spoiler]