04-18-2012, 03:30 PM
Chain Wrote:Why shouldn't we judge them through a modern, western lens?
Because rape, murder, statutory rape, the killing of children, slavery and an entire slew of other fuedal behaivor that happen in the books are acceptable behaivor in Martin's world and clearly not acceptable in western society.
Your idea of evil is irrelevant. It is only the characters in the books views that matter.
The characters I listed are specifically talked about as evil in the story. The exact word "evil" isn't used but at some point those are the only characters their own society clearly feels has crossed the line from good/necessary to evil.
To use a realistic analogy. Do you consider the Spartans as evil because they threw their lame children off of cliffs? Do you consider the Romans as evil since they mass exterminated entire human societies? That was acceptable behaivor in those societies and therefore not evil in the slightest. You simply can't say the Roman's and Spartans are evil by throwing those examples of behaivor as the standards. That is a modern western society standard.
To judge Martin's characters you need to judge them based on the society they live in. Only then can you understand who is good and who is bad.
Chain Wrote:Secondly, I would argue that neither Cerci, Ilyne Payne nor the Red Sorceress are evil as such (with the disclaimer that I am currently only about 3/4ths of the way through the third book). Even Joffery seems more stupid and arrogant than actively malicious. The Walkers aren't really characters, and The Mountain isn't really a main character so I'd group him with minor characters like Reek and Biter (again, at least as far as I've read).
Agreed Walkers and the Mountain aren't main's but Walkers as a concept are a primary part of the story.
Cerci, Payne and the Sorceress are considered evil by the people in Martin's world. Joffery is clearly actively malicious and while he may be stupid being actively malicious and cruel with out cause are the basis of evil in just about every society up to and including Martin's.
Chain Wrote:And you forget that Theon is only 18 years old and torn between two "fathers" without a reliable moral compass. Things do get away from him, but that's because he was trying to do things he was not ready to do not because he was poorly written.
The first book/season Theon comes off as someone very happy with the Starks and clearly has many opportunities to escape or hurt the Starks in many ways. In the begining Theon appears to be very close with Robb. I say appear because you don't get into Theon's head until later in the story which it turns out he is none of those things.
Theon goes from being a Stark supporter to being a Stark hater very quickly. Almost immediately. His bevaivor and ambition changes so quickly either Theon is broken in the head or he is poorly written.
You really have to fill in a lot of blanks when it comes to Theon because Martin doesn't fill them in. HBO made it worse. You have to assume Theon has a lot of resentment and hatred that isn't explained in the story otherwise his actions make zero sense.
I relate him to Anakin Skywalker. Lucas made him evil over practically nothing and completely out of the blue. So much so that it made it unbelievable. For those that share my opinion on Lucas will know what I mean.