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+--- Thread: HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been warned (/showthread.php?tid=8792)
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones - Shinigami - 04-17-2012
Sorry Jakensama Cersei is not sympathetic at worst she is deplorable at best she is pathetic for the following reasons: she indulges her incestuous feelings for Jamie despite the risk they carry to her and the family she claims to love, she refuses or is incapable of exerting her power by any means other than overtly, seems to have little foresight for the consequences of her actions, enables the worst habits of her children by never acting as a mother and more a servant, limitless sense of entitlement to power and station, no concern for her subjects as regent of Westeros, emotionally bullies all those that disagree or deny her wishes, and if I continued to read the rest of the books I am sure this list would be much longer! Were I a soldier of the North I would beg Robb Stark for the privilege to dismember this horrid human being limb by limb!
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones - Chain - 04-17-2012
Jakensama Wrote:Arya isn't cruel, she just isn't a pacifist and is kind of shat on (like pretty much every character in that book).. I would say wanting some payback after some incidents she has been through isn't really indicative of crueltyI would call [spoiler]reciting the names of everyone you want to kill (something like ten people?) every night before bedtime and actively seeking methods to bring about their deaths[/spoiler] more than just "some payback." I can sympathize with her of course - she's not evil, no one in the books really is except maybe Reek, Rorge, Biter and a few other minor characters - but that doesn't make her actions any less cruel.
Shinigami Wrote:Cersei is not sympathetic at worst she is deplorable at best she is pathetic for the following reasons: she indulges her incestuous feelings for Jamie despite the risk they carry to her and the family she claims to love, she refuses or is incapable of exerting her power by any means other than overtly, seems to have little foresight for the consequences of her actions, enables the worst habits of her children by never acting as a mother and more a servant, limitless sense of entitlement to power and station, no concern for her subjects as regent of Westeros, emotionally bullies all those that disagree or deny her wishes, and if I continued to read the rest of the books I am sure this list would be much longer! Were I a soldier of the North I would beg Robb Stark for the privilege to dismember this horrid human being limb by limb!Would you have her live like a stone, mutely catering to the wills of others, letting Robert abuse her then run off to his whores while simultaneously denying herself physical contact from the man she loves? She really only wants for herself and her children a few things - love, safety, comfort - but her situation requires that she go to extreme measures for those very basic things. The scene in her solar [spoiler]while Stannis is attacking Kings Landing[/spoiler] is one of her most profound moments, and I think you'll understand her better after that. When she tells Sansa [spoiler]that it is said a woman's weapon is tears, but men get swords[/spoiler] my heart broke for her.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones - Jakensama - 04-17-2012
[spoiler]Considering what those particular people did to her, its not really cruelty. Vengeful, sure - thats different than cruelty though. Cruelty would be just taking pleasure in pain in general. I wont even continue on the topic as I'm not sure where you are in Storm of Swords. If someone kills your father, for example, wanting to kill them is not cruelty per se. Especially as a good portion of the people on her little chatechism are either serial killers or directly responsible for the downfall of her family. Considering that shes only 11 in the books and what shes been through I'd say shes rather pleasant for what you would expect from a kid in that situation.[/spoiler]
There are a handful of just straight up evil characters, like Sandor Clegane - but most of them do tend to act a bit more layered than most completely two dimensional fantasy fiction characters.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones - Jakensama - 04-17-2012
Shinigami Wrote:Sorry Jakensama Cersei is not sympathetic at worst she is deplorable at best she is pathetic for the following reasons: she indulges her incestuous feelings for Jamie despite the risk they carry to her and the family she claims to love, she refuses or is incapable of exerting her power by any means other than overtly, seems to have little foresight for the consequences of her actions, enables the worst habits of her children by never acting as a mother and more a servant, limitless sense of entitlement to power and station, no concern for her subjects as regent of Westeros, emotionally bullies all those that disagree or deny her wishes, and if I continued to read the rest of the books I am sure this list would be much longer! Were I a soldier of the North I would beg Robb Stark for the privilege to dismember this horrid human being limb by limb!
I never said she was sympathetic, I said she was *more* sympathetic in the show than the books because of some of the added scenes in the show. The whole Lion in the Winterish scene with Robert was quite good at that.
Actually she gets a bit more sympathetic in the books too (as most of the characters that aren't named Geoffery do), but I didn't get what Chain did out of the character, she still deserves everything that happens to her and more.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones - Shinigami - 04-17-2012
My bad on misunderstanding Jakensama. Sorry Chain Cersei's extreme measures serve only to cause more problems than they solve though. The abuse she has suffered is tragic but at what point should she be held accountable? I understand how individuals scarred by experiences can or will act in ways to take back the power or dignity that has been taken from them, but Cersei is not like most victims hundreds of thousands of people are influenced or directly affected by her choices. She is in a position where she could, and so far has, strike back at the people who slight in her no matter the degree or manner. She is a woman stuck between a rock and a hard place and for that she has sympathy from me. However how many innocent will suffer at her hands because she suffered? Her love and concern for her children may be a laudable characteristic but if it comes at the cost of a nation is it justified to pursue her course and damn that cost? These questions may be repugnant to any normal mother but she is queen regent she should and must ask them. Furthermore the things she wants for her children and the lengths she goes for them it could easily be said she would vicariously enjoy what she provides. The old saying of a mother's happiness is her children's makes me shiver when I think of her.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones - Chain - 04-17-2012
It's possible I'm reading more agency and depth into the female characters than Martin intended to bequeath them, but it seems to me that neither Cerci nor Arya are simply reacting to circumstances - a trap many fantasy writers fall into when writing women (nor is Daenerys, but why she is my most favorite character is a rant for another time). They both deserve to be examined on their own terms; Cerci as trying to reclaim the power, dignity and safety she was promised as a child then never found and Arya [spoiler]actively seeking to kill those who wronged her and robbed her of her family.[/spoiler]
But it's exactly that agency that makes it easy for me to sympathize with both of them. They want something and they are working towards getting it.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones - Vanraw - 04-17-2012
You guys and all your spoilers.
I will say that Cat might be bad later, but in the show so far she is ok. Treating Jon Snow like ass is expected when every time she sees him it reminds her of her husbands infidelity. This doesn't paint her as a bad person but the kind of emotion you would expect.
I haven't seen Ayra curl yet. In fact she probably has me most excited about how she will develop (hoping of course she doesn't get killed right away.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones - Jakensama - 04-18-2012
Don't worry, by the time you get really into the characters they will only have 2 or 3 POV chapters in a book while shitty characters like Brienne get 8.
A Feast For Crows is the low point of the series, with tons of minor POVs and little of the big names... Very Jordanish. If the show makes it that long I will be very curious to see how it is dealt with, but fortunately it looks like this season they are willing to diverge from the book more and more..
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones - Dharus - 04-18-2012
Yeah, Feast of Crows was hard to get through but I think it was because he needed to backfill the Dornish since they were and are important faction.
I should of really said... no one is clearly good. While there are a few pure evil types (my vote is for Bolton), even they aren't all evil if you think that having a reason to be evil is okay. Almost everyone has some issue with someone else because of history and a lot of characters are really selfish. That's sort of Martin's problem with the series... all of these storylines mix and mingle which is great intrigue but they seem to never end.
Brienne isn't a bad character... she is the anti-Cercei if you think about it.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones - Vllad - 04-18-2012
You guys are judging the characters all wrong.
You can't judge good and evil of medieval moral decisions on current western morality. You can only judge them based on the setting that Martin put them in.
Basically they have to be considered evil by the morality in Martin's world and they have to be sane.
That pretty much leaves only a few characters that are actually evil.
Major Characters,
Cersei, Joffrey, Reek, The Mountain, The Walkers/Wights, The Red Sorceress,
Their are other minor's like the Bolton Bastard, Ilyne Payne etc.
Based on the above you could certainly put Theon in that class but because Martin and HBO pulled a George Lucas on that character it is certainly debateable. Theon was written so poorly that you can argue things just got away from him. I chose to assume he always coveted and hated Starks and therefore was evil. The way HBO took will just make him seem crazy.
Other then the few above no one is "evil" in the Martin books. HBO may change that.
Vllad
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones - Chain - 04-18-2012
Vllad Wrote:You guys are judging the characters all wrong.
You can't judge good and evil of medieval moral decisions on current western morality. You can only judge them based on the setting that Martin put them in.
Basically they have to be considered evil by the morality in Martin's world and they have to be sane.
That pretty much leaves only a few characters that are actually evil.
Major Characters,
Cersei, Joffrey, Reek, The Mountain, The Walkers/Wights, The Red Sorceress,
Their are other minor's like the Bolton Bastard, Ilyne Payne etc.
Based on the above you could certainly put Theon in that class but because Martin and HBO pulled a George Lucas on that character it is certainly debateable. Theon was written so poorly that you can argue things just got away from him. I chose to assume he always coveted and hated Starks and therefore was evil. The way HBO took will just make him seem crazy.
Other then the few above no one is "evil" in the Martin books. HBO may change that.
Vllad
I disagree with just about everything you've said.
Why shouldn't we judge them through a modern, western lens? We're modern westerners and so is George RR Martin. If these were real people I might concede this point, but these characters were tailor made for our consumption and we're meant to be able to relate to them.
Secondly, I would argue that neither Cerci, Ilyne Payne nor the Red Sorceress are evil as such (with the disclaimer that I am currently only about 3/4ths of the way through the third book). Even Joffery seems more stupid and arrogant than actively malicious. The Walkers aren't really characters, and The Mountain isn't really a main character so I'd group him with minor characters like Reek and Biter (again, at least as far as I've read).
And you forget that Theon is only 18 years old and torn between two "fathers" without a reliable moral compass. Things do get away from him, but that's because he was trying to do things he was not ready to do not because he was poorly written.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones - Vllad - 04-18-2012
Chain Wrote:Why shouldn't we judge them through a modern, western lens?
Because rape, murder, statutory rape, the killing of children, slavery and an entire slew of other fuedal behaivor that happen in the books are acceptable behaivor in Martin's world and clearly not acceptable in western society.
Your idea of evil is irrelevant. It is only the characters in the books views that matter.
The characters I listed are specifically talked about as evil in the story. The exact word "evil" isn't used but at some point those are the only characters their own society clearly feels has crossed the line from good/necessary to evil.
To use a realistic analogy. Do you consider the Spartans as evil because they threw their lame children off of cliffs? Do you consider the Romans as evil since they mass exterminated entire human societies? That was acceptable behaivor in those societies and therefore not evil in the slightest. You simply can't say the Roman's and Spartans are evil by throwing those examples of behaivor as the standards. That is a modern western society standard.
To judge Martin's characters you need to judge them based on the society they live in. Only then can you understand who is good and who is bad.
Chain Wrote:Secondly, I would argue that neither Cerci, Ilyne Payne nor the Red Sorceress are evil as such (with the disclaimer that I am currently only about 3/4ths of the way through the third book). Even Joffery seems more stupid and arrogant than actively malicious. The Walkers aren't really characters, and The Mountain isn't really a main character so I'd group him with minor characters like Reek and Biter (again, at least as far as I've read).
Agreed Walkers and the Mountain aren't main's but Walkers as a concept are a primary part of the story.
Cerci, Payne and the Sorceress are considered evil by the people in Martin's world. Joffery is clearly actively malicious and while he may be stupid being actively malicious and cruel with out cause are the basis of evil in just about every society up to and including Martin's.
Chain Wrote:And you forget that Theon is only 18 years old and torn between two "fathers" without a reliable moral compass. Things do get away from him, but that's because he was trying to do things he was not ready to do not because he was poorly written.
The first book/season Theon comes off as someone very happy with the Starks and clearly has many opportunities to escape or hurt the Starks in many ways. In the begining Theon appears to be very close with Robb. I say appear because you don't get into Theon's head until later in the story which it turns out he is none of those things.
Theon goes from being a Stark supporter to being a Stark hater very quickly. Almost immediately. His bevaivor and ambition changes so quickly either Theon is broken in the head or he is poorly written.
You really have to fill in a lot of blanks when it comes to Theon because Martin doesn't fill them in. HBO made it worse. You have to assume Theon has a lot of resentment and hatred that isn't explained in the story otherwise his actions make zero sense.
I relate him to Anakin Skywalker. Lucas made him evil over practically nothing and completely out of the blue. So much so that it made it unbelievable. For those that share my opinion on Lucas will know what I mean.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones - Uncle Shags - 04-18-2012
What I got from Martin was that good and evil are a spectrum. There is a whole lot of grey in the middle, and by showing characters and their actions from multiple perspectives we see not everything is as black and white as it initially appears.
How many characters started out as the evil guy in the black hat but as soon as you saw things from their angle you realized they're in a grey hat with white flowers?
Westero is a fucked up world and to survive people do fucked up shit. No one's innocent.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones - Zirak - 04-18-2012
I enjoy three dimensional characters. Very few people in the real world are just pure good or evil and while I do enjoy pure good and evil characters in fiction I also enjoy more well rounded and realistic characters. However, just as in the real world, having something in your background or circumstances that pushes you to evil acts does not absolve you of having done those acts. If you push a kid out the window of a tower in an attempt to kill him and then plot to have him assassinated upon discovery that the fall only put him into a coma then you have to pay the consequences of those evil acts - hello Jaime and Cersie. Now a character may be able to atone for evil in their past through future actions and I think Jaime may be on this road and he is being made to pay for past crimes. Cersie however is an evil, calculating bitch with no remorse for any of the pain and suffering she has inflicted on those around her in her attempt to seize and hold power.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones - Chain - 04-18-2012
Zirak Wrote:Now a character may be able to atone for evil in their past through future actions and I think Jaime may be on this road and he is being made to pay for past crimes. Cersie however is an evil, calculating bitch with no remorse for any of the pain and suffering she has inflicted on those around her in her attempt to seize and hold power.What makes you think Jamie is on his way to redemption? If anything he has less remorse for his actions than Cersie - and he was the one who actually threw Bran from the window! In the books at least (I forget whether they portrayed it in the show), Cersie is upset with him for that and insists they could have kept him quiet without killing him. What's more, Jamie can't even claim the excuse of trying to protect his children because, as revealed from his point of view in book 3, he doesn't give a fuck about them.
In fact, Jamie is so remorseless that he seriously considers abandoning his white cloak, marrying Cersie and then marrying Joffery to Myrcella the way the Targarians had done for centuries. Cersie refuses him and even consents to be re-married to someone else although she doesn't want to because it's what's best for her children.
As for the assassin
[spoiler]He dies before it can be confirmed, but it's hinted strongly at several points that Joffery sent the assassin out of a mixture of cruel stupidity and a desire to impress his "father" Robert who had said it would be kinder to kill Bran than let hm live as a cripple.[/spoiler]
Should Cersie be held responsible for her actions? yes of course she should, but she is demonized beyond the scope of her actions (which, when you cut right to it, amount exclusively to falling in love with her brother and arranging the death of her physically abusive philandering husband) because she happens to develop enmities with a few of the most popular characters and has the misfortune of being a woman.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones - Jakensama - 04-18-2012
I don't recall whats going on at your point in 3, but as the story goes on Jamie becomes more and more of a decent person. Cersei, on the other hand, has gross ineptitude in ruling and increasing power craziness are pretty obvious.
Whatever cards she was dealt in life, her actions once she gets in power are all pretty fucked up although as above, my chronology isn't the best so i'll forgoe being more specific.
If you are going to forgive her because of a perspective of being a woman in a mans world then you also kind of have to take into account of how Jamie turned out like he was - he is essentially shat on by everyone for killing a guy who burned people alive. Not to mention that his actions all started out for love of his sister, the whole reason he joined the Kingsguard, when he was really being used to fuck with Tywin by Aerys.
You'll actually find out her real motivations in pretty much everything in life when the flashback to her childhood happens, don't remember when that is though.
In general I would certainly wait to make judgments on any characters for a while, but then again since there are + or - 2 books left, I suppose that could go for all of us.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones - Skelas - 04-20-2012
![[Image: joffrey-umad2.jpg]](http://photos.imageevent.com/bluesx/farkimages/joffrey-umad2.jpg)
![[Image: tumblr_m1wiy6d29g1r5fyi4o1_500.jpg]](http://i881.photobucket.com/albums/ac20/jadedalways645/tumblr_m1wiy6d29g1r5fyi4o1_500.jpg)
![[Image: daenerys_YAII.jpg]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bzesJfBsZZ8/ThwvHaKYqZI/AAAAAAAAJxQ/Anj16JkzUOY/s400/daenerys_YAII.jpg)
![[Image: 3ourzu.jpg]](http://i.qkme.me/3ourzu.jpg)
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones - OrsunVZ - 04-20-2012
I just laughed out loud to Obamacare! I'm passing that one on.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones - Shinigami - 04-20-2012
Oh internet is there anything you can't make funny?
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones - Vanraw - 04-20-2012
I got to say, I really liked Jason Momoa aka Khal Drogo and wish he had not died. He was turning into one of my favorite characters though a minor role. He was ok in Atlantas, but his personality really fit the Khal Drogo part.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones - Jakensama - 04-20-2012
He is a much better actor when he can angrily shout gibberish as opposed to memorizing english lines, apparently.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones - Shinigami - 04-21-2012
Yea considering he was Conan the Barbarian and far less impressive than Khal Drogo. Though to be fair I think the script and writing failed him more than his acting.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones - Vllad - 04-23-2012
Reading about the birth of a shadow and watching it are two different things.
Vllad
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones - OrsunVZ - 04-23-2012
I'm with you Vllad... 100%
edit: I knew what was about to happen, and even I was a little shocked. The people sitting watching with me all went "WTFWASTHAT!!!!!!!??????"
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones - Vanraw - 04-23-2012
Yes I was wtf was that.....