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+--- Thread: HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been warned (/showthread.php?tid=8792)
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been war - Zouji - 06-17-2015
Quote:Malazan was decent but dragged on, especially in the middle books. Plus, every character had practically the same personality. Every fucking person in his universe, regardless of educational level was apparently a freshman philosophy student.
A lot of the Malazans had similar personalities. But, they are foot soldiers so what did you expect?
As far as the philosophy/tribal lore/different world creation story that is present in every fucking book, you really have to expect something like that from a actual field Anthropologist/Archeologist.
Also I love how every tribe/nation thinks they are the bad asses of the world. Then they get there teeth kicked in.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been war - Jakensama - 06-17-2015
Zouji Wrote:A lot of the Malazans had similar personalities. But, they are foot soldiers so what did you expect?
Almost every single relevant character in the series waxes philosophical about things. That's not normal.
The first few books were good, the second was very good (and depressing), and the fourth or fifth where the first third of the book was Karsa's story was pretty good. It was more or less downhill and convoluted after that.
I do like his magic system and the god's involvement with the world. He's like Jordan - he makes a better world than he does an epic story.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been war - Zouji - 06-17-2015
Erikson has lots of plots/sub plots/sub sub plots going on in the background of the books. Most of them aren't really revealed until later on. I always read each book twice just make sure I had all of the plot points straight.
That was actually one of things that I liked about the books best. You have all of these various plot points going on and you are just thrown into the middle of them. So you either sink or swim in figuring out the various threads.
I thought he ended the Malazan series rather well. With all of the books all of the loose plot points have been tied up. Except for the Karsa story. That will be resolved in a separate trilogy later on.
The Ian C Esslemont Malazan books are different. He has no really hidden sub plots in his books. Everything is pretty much out in the open.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been war - OrsunVZ - 06-18-2015
Best Hitler rant to date.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been war - Jakensama - 06-18-2015
Too bad learning German has ruined those
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been war - Vllad - 06-18-2015
OrsunVZ Wrote:Best Hitler rant to date.
You know you have reached low depths when he would have sent Thorne to Stalin to be killed and compares Martin to Fegelein.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been war - Zouji - 06-18-2015
It really hits home how much the Nights Watch sucks when you would probably have a much better survival chance in a Siberian work camp, rather than being on the wall.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been war - Jakensama - 06-18-2015
Hell, it seems safer than anywhere else in the Kingdom, I mean Maester Aemon made it over 100 there.
Jon was just kind of a retard - he did the equivilent of allowing ISIS members to cross the border and become citizens, and didn't expect to get fragged by his own troops?
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been war - Bach - 06-18-2015
Jakensama Wrote:Hell, it seems safer than anywhere else in the Kingdom, I mean Maester Aemon made it over 100 there.
Jon was just kind of a retard - he did the equivilent of allowing ISIS members to cross the border and become citizens, and didn't expect to get fragged by his own troops?
This kind of hits the nail on the head for me. In order for this storyline to work Jon has to be pretty stupid. Which is inconsistent with his previous intelligence level.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been war - strife - 06-18-2015
Hes like his "dad". He does what he thinks is right and doesn't think of the consequences... or at least expects others to have his same level of decency.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been war - Dharus - 06-19-2015
Bach Wrote:Jakensama Wrote:Hell, it seems safer than anywhere else in the Kingdom, I mean Maester Aemon made it over 100 there.
Jon was just kind of a retard - he did the equivilent of allowing ISIS members to cross the border and become citizens, and didn't expect to get fragged by his own troops?
This kind of hits the nail on the head for me. In order for this storyline to work Jon has to be pretty stupid. Which is inconsistent with his previous intelligence level.
Well, i don't think that analogy is right on though. There are no undead armies threatening humanity in our world. Jon is a big picture guy who knows the big threat while everyone else is still playing their nearsighted petty power plays and personal vendettas. He is intelligent but he just doesn't have the right assets around him and doesn't play to individuals egos. Tyrion does this well for example to achieve longer term goals though lacking physical abilities.
He is very similar to Ned Stark without the super morality personality. I think both him and Ned knew the risks but they are not going to make a bad choice based on personal risk. Ned knew exactly what would happen when he uncovered the truth. The problem was he wasn't fast enough before Robert died.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been war - Vllad - 06-19-2015
Jakensama Wrote:Jon was just kind of a retard - he did the equivilent of allowing ISIS members to cross the border and become citizens, and didn't expect to get fragged by his own troops?
I am not sure that is a valid comparison. Maybe more like letting a bunch of Mexicans cross our borders because ISIS is starting to recruit them is a better comparison.
Its not like the entire Nights Watch didn't survive the fight at the Crag against White Walkers. Maybe with exception of Olly everyone has seen White Walkers. Jon's logic of not allowing Wildlings to become Wights is not the stuff of a retard.
Book Jon went off the rails about Winterfell. Show Jon is completely right and his men are the retards especially after Hardhome.
In the show what happened to Jon has nothing to do with the Wildlings otherwise it makes zero sense. Self preservation even for theives with an IQ of 70 had to kick in after what they heard happen in Hardhome and lived through at the Crag. The only way it makes sense for Thorne and company to kill Jon is to do it NOT because of the Wildlings but to take control of the Nights Watch. Basically it was a coup.
IF it was about the Wildlings Thorne would have killed Jon before he went to Hardhome not afterwards since once they are across their is no getting them back behind the wall.
This is why I think so many non book readers are completely confused about Jon's death. The show did a poor job explaining the situation and it is too difficult to connect the dots. Jon gets proved correct and he is killed anyway. Either the Nights Watch has rabies and is acting completely irrational or Jon's death was about something they never covered. Either way that is a major plot flaw.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been war - OrsunVZ - 06-19-2015
Vllad Wrote:I am not sure that is a valid comparison. Maybe more like letting a bunch of Mexicans cross our borders because ISIS is starting to recruit them is a better comparison.
Perfect comparison, actually.
Vllad Wrote:In the show what happened to Jon has nothing to do with the Wildlings otherwise it makes zero sense. Self preservation even for theives with an IQ of 70 had to kick in after what they heard happen in Hardhome and lived through at the Crag. The only way it makes sense for Thorne and company to kill Jon is to do it NOT because of the Wildlings but to take control of the Nights Watch. Basically it was a coup.
I think it's both. For Thorne, is was a coup. And Thorne used the sentiments of Olly-and-the-like to take out Jon. He needed to do it this way. He needed the complete buy-in of the remaining watch, lest he become another Jon.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been war - strife - 06-19-2015
OrsunVZ Wrote:right. Thorne is using his hatred of Jon as a driving force. He's not using logic. They are stuck in their old ways of the Wildling's being the enemy... honestly it has a similar story arc to racism in general. The nights watch has lost its real goal... to protect the realm. Jon realized it... nobody else did... those that killed Jon, did so because they are blinded by their hated for the Wildlings.Vllad Wrote:In the show what happened to Jon has nothing to do with the Wildlings otherwise it makes zero sense. Self preservation even for theives with an IQ of 70 had to kick in after what they heard happen in Hardhome and lived through at the Crag. The only way it makes sense for Thorne and company to kill Jon is to do it NOT because of the Wildlings but to take control of the Nights Watch. Basically it was a coup.
I think it's both. For Thorne, is was a coup. And Thorne used the sentiments of Olly-and-the-like to take out Jon. He needed to do it this way. He needed the complete buy-in of the remaining watch, lest he become another Jon.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been war - Jakensama - 06-19-2015
Vllad Wrote:I am not sure that is a valid comparison. Maybe more like letting a bunch of Mexicans cross our borders because ISIS is starting to recruit them is a better comparison.
I'd buy Mexicans. It's like real life - bringing them in for cheap labor is fundamentally useful for us, but the general racist sentiment for people overcomes logic.
The Starks are just generally fucking retards when it comes to thinking how people are going to react. Ned warns Cersei, getting himself killed in the process. Robb marries the dumb bitch he knocks up out of honor, breaking a marriage contract and gets killed in the process (in the TV show its even worse, at least in the book he does it because of honor, in the show its just because he is a selfish prick). Jon thinks that letting a generational enemy march through their wall won't have repercussions, getting himself killed in the process.
Hopefully Rickon will get some common sense from the wildling raising him.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been war - Bach - 06-19-2015
For the combat trained son of a Northern warlord, knowing the watch is hopelessly outnumbered to even leave the wildling army for a minute after he won its trust is totally idiotic. He just saved thousands and brought them with him. The nights watch numbers in the hundreds? No commander is stupid enough to throw that away and surround himself with what he knows are mutineers. He has already seen the watch turn on their commanders before. Why not, it's mostly made up of criminals dodging a dungeon cell. He knows that. He has to suspect or at least be more guarded than that unless he is a halfwit. At a minimum he should have assigned himself guards like every other military commander in the books has thus far. Even Stanis' brother was more guarded in his camp.There were probably a hundred more logical ways Martin could have killed off the character and still maintained his story line.
Anyway, I'll not debate what I consider bad writing. But when characters suddenly change nature to make a plot line work that is where you start losing me.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been war - Bach - 06-19-2015
Jakensama Wrote:Vllad Wrote:I am not sure that is a valid comparison. Maybe more like letting a bunch of Mexicans cross our borders because ISIS is starting to recruit them is a better comparison.
I'd buy Mexicans. It's like real life - bringing them in for cheap labor is fundamentally useful for us, but the general racist sentiment for people overcomes logic.
The Starks are just generally fucking retards when it comes to thinking how people are going to react. Ned warns Cersei, getting himself killed in the process. Robb marries the dumb bitch he knocks up out of honor, breaking a marriage contract and gets killed in the process (in the TV show its even worse, at least in the book he does it because of honor, in the show its just because he is a selfish prick). Jon thinks that letting a generational enemy march through their wall won't have repercussions, getting himself killed in the process.
Hopefully Rickon will get some common sense from the wildling raising him.
Ned was all about honor and battle. But apparently that was the end of his wisdom.
Had Rob actually been Honorable he would have stayed with the arranged marriage. I took Martin's angle as Rob was emotional.
I'm still not buying the generational enemy angle. The watch may be criminals and a semi-disciplined lot but they can all count and plenty of their buds have seen and experienced the Walker army raising the dead. It makes no sense that anyone but halfwits would be against getting the Wildling at least on the South side of the wall. Let alone a team up for self preservations sake. This part of Martins storyline is just hard to buy. If he just wanted Jon dead he could have found more believable methods and more believable watchmen I would think.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been war - Jakensama - 06-19-2015
Bach Wrote:Had Rob actually been Honorable he would have stayed with the arranged marriage. I took Martin's angle as Rob was emotional.
Thats the TV version. In the book he is wounded in battle and knocks up the woman and feels duty bound to marry her afterwards. It's dumb, but at least in the book it makes sense with his Stark stupidity. In the TV show he is just a selfish prick.
Quote:I'm still not buying the generational enemy angle. The watch may be criminals and a semi-disciplined lot but they can all count and plenty of their buds have seen and experienced the Walker army raising the dead. It makes no sense that anyone but halfwits would be against getting the Wildling at least on the South side of the wall. Let alone a team up for self preservations sake. This part of Martins storyline is just hard to buy. If he just wanted Jon dead he could have found more believable methods and more believable watchmen I would think.
It's completely believable. The human beings I have come in contact with my whole life are more than willing to let prejudice and old hatred get in the way of what is in their best interest. Keep in mind that a lot of the people who stabbed Jon weren't at the big white walker battles and take stories from Jon's partisans with a grain of salt.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been war - Vllad - 06-22-2015
Jakensama Wrote:Bach Wrote:Had Rob actually been Honorable he would have stayed with the arranged marriage. I took Martin's angle as Rob was emotional.
Thats the TV version. In the book he is wounded in battle and knocks up the woman and feels duty bound to marry her afterwards. It's dumb, but at least in the book it makes sense with his Stark stupidity. In the TV show he is just a selfish prick.
Rob marrying that women ended his entire campaign. That drives me as crazy as Jon's death. The book version I kind of get but the show version I am at a loss. As soon as he married that woman he lost the Karstarks, he lost the Frey's and he lost the Boltons.
The problem with those plot lines is typically you see stupidity repeat itself. In TV it just comes out of the blue.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been war - Jakensama - 06-22-2015
Also in the book he is 15, in the show he is a grown ass man which makes him even dumber.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been war - OrsunVZ - 06-22-2015
I still think Jon getting stabbed was as much a power grab as anything else. First of all, when Jon was elected, it was close. Many of Jon's supporters are either dead or gone away. I can see Jon hoping that people see the necessity, and put all other differences aside. I can see Jon taking this action despite the knowledge that he PROBABLY WILL DIE. At the end, Jon is Ned's son, and he will make the tough decisions. It is entirely feasible that Jon came to the conclusion that the only hope was to just TRY to get as many people south of the wall as possible. If he fails and dies at the hands of fellow night's watch, it's and end FAR better than dying to the wights.
I still think this all comes down to Thorne. For him, this is a power play 100%. For him, he views Jon as weak, and unable to make the kind of decisions necessary to survive. He thinks Jon is going to get everyone killed. And for Thorne, it would be easy for him to recruit the kind of people necessary to betray Jon. Olly is the only one that is the REAL betrayal. And for him, he's just a kid, and has never been north of the wall. The wall itself, to Olly, must seem utterly impenetrable. And again, it would be easy for Thorne to manipulate Olly.
So ultimately, this comes down to Jon vs. Thorne, and essentially Jon hoping Thorne doesn't choose this moment for a coup. You have to assume that what transpired at Hardholme was relayed to everyone. For Thorne, that news probably CAUSED him to take out Jon. The traitor brand they gave him was simply Thorne's "cover".
Lastly, it wasn't the entire watch that came and stabbed him. It was 8'ish guys plus Olly. Not everyone in the watch would be willing to take out Jon even though they might think he's wrong.
Anyone know how Thorne came into the Watch?
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been war - strife - 06-22-2015
After kings Landing was taken Thorne who fought for the Targaryen's was given the choice of death or the black by Tywin. He obviously close the black.
Thorne has hated Jon since Jon joined the black... and Jon getting Commander over him was the last straw. Jon tried to mend it by making him 1st Ranger, but it wasn't enough.
It was definitely a power grab... but I think it's mostly out of his hatred for Jon... the bastard who is now his Commander.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been war - Jakensama - 06-22-2015
In the book he was sent out to range after Janos Slynt was killed, and while he hates Jon he never had a shot to mastermind the coup. It's Bowen Marsh, the first builder, who leads the treason in the book and he has tears in his eyes at the time - so it's likely not a power play.
The show MAY go the route that it's because Throne wants power, but in the book its pretty clearly because of the view among many in the watch that letting the wildlings through was treason.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been war - Vllad - 06-22-2015
Jakensama Wrote:In the book he was sent out to range after Janos Slynt was killed, and while he hates Jon he never had a shot to mastermind the coup. It's Bowen Marsh, the first builder, who leads the treason in the book and he has tears in his eyes at the time - so it's likely not a power play.
The show MAY go the route that it's because Throne wants power, but in the book its pretty clearly because of the view among many in the watch that letting the wildlings through was treason.
In the book Jon is killed because he wants to take the NightsWatch to Winterfell. I think the book is pretty clear that people only had minor issues with Jon until he went off the rails and wanted to march on Winterfell.
Re: HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been war - Jakensama - 06-22-2015
Ah yeah, I forgot he told them - some reason I remember him riding off alone.. That's what happens when there is that long between books.